Notes from Vodafone superfast upgrade

[t***@gmail.com]

Well I took Vodafone's offer... went for the 38/10 option, with the static IP (was getting ~6-7 down and ~1 up on ADSL2+ previously).

"Go live" date was yesterday (Vodafone remind you of this with a steady stream of texts). Had the new Vodafone-supplied router plugged in ready, but not much seemed to happen over the day (no lights on router... but see below) and while I could connect to the wifi (SSID and password on a sticker on the back) it wasn't actually serving anything on the 192.168.1.1 address. Tried again this morning and after a power cycle (which they tell you not to do for the first week or two while it's "optimising", but I had to try something) it seemed to be fine... nice fast internet access (speed check sites are giving 30/8 or better), and control panel accessible on 192.168.1.1.

I discovered that the router supplied comes with some energy saving mode configured which disables the LED status lights (for internet and wifi) on top of the box. Easily rectified in control panel, but not very helpful when you're setting up and want all the diagnostics you can get! (The LEDs might have indicated if/when there was any action on the switchover day, but being disabled they're telling you nothing).

Seems a reasonably competent but basic router. I had no problems updating the subnet to my LAN's 192.168.7.X range (like the old Demon-supplied Thompson ADSL router I used to use). Disabled its DHCP and DNS for the LAN and main wifi as I have my own machine serving that. Supports port-forwarding but I have yet to enter the only one I care about (ssh). Occurs to me I should expunge any mention of the 158.152.1.58 and 158.152.1.43 Demon DNS servers (i.e from my own DHCP server and static-IP configured machines) as those will presumably die at some point. Vodafone's router seems to know about a couple of Vodafone ones but it's unclear how stable the IPs are and googling finds people saying they're rubbish and to use OpenDNS or Google's DNS instead.

There's a nice feature that the router provides 2 wifi interfaces... "wifi 2" (if enabled) seems to be a guest one (on 192.168.5.X) which just routes to the WAN side and doesn't give LAN (or router control panel) access. You can enable the router's DHCP and DNS just for the guest wifi (just as well as it can't access those services on the LAN).

Only minor issue I have is that on the old Thomson router I could telnet into it and set some local routing for a 192.168.0.X subnet I have here with a commandline

ip rtadd dst=192.168.0.0 dstmsk=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.7.2

but there seems to be no way to do anything equivalent on the Vodafone router (and so far as I can determine there's no commandline access). This isn't actually a big deal as the only thing on that network was a wifi access point for guests and they can use the guest wifi on the Vodafone router now.

[Peter Hill]

Post by t***@gmail.com
Well I took Vodafone's offer... went for the 38/10 option, with the static IP (was getting ~6-7 down and ~1 up on ADSL2+ previously).
"Go live" date was yesterday (Vodafone remind you of this with a steady stream of texts). Had the new Vodafone-supplied router plugged in ready, but not much seemed to happen over the day (no lights on router... but see below) and while I could connect to the wifi (SSID and password on a sticker on the back) it wasn't actually serving anything on the 192.168.1.1 address. Tried again this morning and after a power cycle (which they tell you not to do for the first week or two while it's "optimising", but I had to try something) it seemed to be fine... nice fast internet access (speed check sites are giving 30/8 or better), and control panel accessible on 192.168.1.1.
I discovered that the router supplied comes with some energy saving mode configured which disables the LED status lights (for internet and wifi) on top of the box. Easily rectified in control panel, but not very helpful when you're setting up and want all the diagnostics you can get! (The LEDs might have indicated if/when there was any action on the switchover day, but being disabled they're telling you nothing).
Seems a reasonably competent but basic router. I had no problems updating the subnet to my LAN's 192.168.7.X range (like the old Demon-supplied Thompson ADSL router I used to use). Disabled its DHCP and DNS for the LAN and main wifi as I have my own machine serving that. Supports port-forwarding but I have yet to enter the only one I care about (ssh). Occurs to me I should expunge any mention of the 158.152.1.58 and 158.152.1.43 Demon DNS servers (i.e from my own DHCP server and static-IP configured machines) as those will presumably die at some point. Vodafone's router seems to know about a couple of Vodafone ones but it's unclear how stable the IPs are and googling finds people saying they're rubbish and to use OpenDNS or Google's DNS instead.
There's a nice feature that the router provides 2 wifi interfaces... "wifi 2" (if enabled) seems to be a guest one (on 192.168.5.X) which just routes to the WAN side and doesn't give LAN (or router control panel) access. You can enable the router's DHCP and DNS just for the guest wifi (just as well as it can't access those services on the LAN).
Only minor issue I have is that on the old Thomson router I could telnet into it and set some local routing for a 192.168.0.X subnet I have here with a commandline
ip rtadd dst=192.168.0.0 dstmsk=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.7.2
but there seems to be no way to do anything equivalent on the Vodafone router (and so far as I can determine there's no commandline access). This isn't actually a big deal as the only thing on that network was a wifi access point for guests and they can use the guest wifi on the Vodafone router now.

Does the "guest" wifi need a password?

Useful that's on a 2nd net as it doesn't serve up all your media and
samba shares etc.

[Wm]

Post by t***@gmail.com
Well I took Vodafone's offer... went for the 38/10 option, with the static IP (was getting ~6-7 down and ~1 up on ADSL2+ previously).
"Go live" date was yesterday (Vodafone remind you of this with a steady stream of texts). Had the new Vodafone-supplied router plugged in ready, but not much seemed to happen over the day (no lights on router... but see below) and while I could connect to the wifi (SSID and password on a sticker on the back) it wasn't actually serving anything on the 192.168.1.1 address. Tried again this morning and after a power cycle (which they tell you not to do for the first week or two while it's "optimising", but I had to try something) it seemed to be fine... nice fast internet access (speed check sites are giving 30/8 or better), and control panel accessible on 192.168.1.1.
I discovered that the router supplied comes with some energy saving mode configured which disables the LED status lights (for internet and wifi) on top of the box. Easily rectified in control panel, but not very helpful when you're setting up and want all the diagnostics you can get! (The LEDs might have indicated if/when there was any action on the switchover day, but being disabled they're telling you nothing).
Seems a reasonably competent but basic router. I had no problems updating the subnet to my LAN's 192.168.7.X range (like the old Demon-supplied Thompson ADSL router I used to use). Disabled its DHCP and DNS for the LAN and main wifi as I have my own machine serving that. Supports port-forwarding but I have yet to enter the only one I care about (ssh). Occurs to me I should expunge any mention of the 158.152.1.58 and 158.152.1.43 Demon DNS servers (i.e from my own DHCP server and static-IP configured machines) as those will presumably die at some point. Vodafone's router seems to know about a couple of Vodafone ones but it's unclear how stable the IPs are and googling finds people saying they're rubbish and to use OpenDNS or Google's DNS instead.
There's a nice feature that the router provides 2 wifi interfaces... "wifi 2" (if enabled) seems to be a guest one (on 192.168.5.X) which just routes to the WAN side and doesn't give LAN (or router control panel) access. You can enable the router's DHCP and DNS just for the guest wifi (just as well as it can't access those services on the LAN).
Only minor issue I have is that on the old Thomson router I could telnet into it and set some local routing for a 192.168.0.X subnet I have here with a commandline
ip rtadd dst=192.168.0.0 dstmsk=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.7.2
but there seems to be no way to do anything equivalent on the Vodafone router (and so far as I can determine there's no commandline access). This isn't actually a big deal as the only thing on that network was a wifi access point for guests and they can use the guest wifi on the Vodafone router now.

Ummm, since we know Vodafone don't aksherly make routers all you need to
do is work out the bit inside.

I'm still waiting, some time later, for the death of demon offer.

I say vodafone are liars.

[Peter Hill]

Post by Wm

Post by t***@gmail.com
Well I took Vodafone's offer... went for the 38/10 option, with the
static IP (was getting ~6-7 down and ~1 up on ADSL2+ previously).
"Go live" date was yesterday (Vodafone remind you of this with a
steady stream of texts).  Had the new Vodafone-supplied router plugged
in ready, but not much seemed to happen over the day (no lights on
router... but see below) and while I could connect to the wifi (SSID
and password on a sticker on the back) it wasn't actually serving
anything on the 192.168.1.1 address.  Tried again this morning and
after a power cycle (which they tell you not to do for the first week
or two while it's "optimising", but I had to try something) it seemed
to be fine... nice fast internet access (speed check sites are giving
30/8 or better), and control panel accessible on 192.168.1.1.
I discovered that the router supplied comes with some energy saving
mode configured which disables the LED status lights (for internet and
wifi) on top of the box.  Easily rectified in control panel, but not
very helpful when you're setting up and want all the diagnostics you
can get!  (The LEDs might have indicated if/when there was any action
on the switchover day, but being disabled they're telling you nothing).
Seems a reasonably competent but basic router.  I had no problems
updating the subnet to my LAN's 192.168.7.X range (like the old
Demon-supplied Thompson ADSL router I used to use).  Disabled its DHCP
and DNS for the LAN and main wifi as I have my own machine serving
that.  Supports port-forwarding but I have yet to enter the only one I
care about (ssh).  Occurs to me I should expunge any mention of the
158.152.1.58 and 158.152.1.43 Demon DNS servers (i.e from my own DHCP
server and static-IP configured machines) as those will presumably die
at some point.  Vodafone's router seems to know about a couple of
Vodafone ones but it's unclear how stable the IPs are and googling
finds people saying they're rubbish and to use OpenDNS or Google's DNS
instead.
There's a nice feature that the router provides 2 wifi interfaces...
"wifi 2" (if enabled) seems to be a guest one (on 192.168.5.X) which
just routes to the WAN side and doesn't give LAN (or router control
panel) access.  You can enable the router's DHCP and DNS just for the
guest wifi (just as well as it can't access those services on the LAN).
Only minor issue I have is that on the old Thomson router I could
telnet into it and set some local routing for a 192.168.0.X subnet I
have here with a commandline
   ip rtadd dst=192.168.0.0 dstmsk=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.7.2
but there seems to be no way to do anything equivalent on the Vodafone
router (and so far as I can determine there's no commandline access).
This isn't actually a big deal as the only thing on that network was a
wifi access point for guests and they can use the guest wifi on the
Vodafone router now.

Ummm, since we know Vodafone don't aksherly make routers all you need to
do is work out the bit inside.
I'm still waiting, some time later, for the death of demon offer.
I say vodafone are liars.

I think the fiber offer is only made to people that are in locations
that have a LLU.

[Wm]

Post by Peter Hill

Post by Wm

Post by t***@gmail.com
Well I took Vodafone's offer... went for the 38/10 option, with the
static IP (was getting ~6-7 down and ~1 up on ADSL2+ previously).
"Go live" date was yesterday (Vodafone remind you of this with a
steady stream of texts).  Had the new Vodafone-supplied router
plugged in ready, but not much seemed to happen over the day (no
lights on router... but see below) and while I could connect to the
wifi (SSID and password on a sticker on the back) it wasn't actually
serving anything on the 192.168.1.1 address.  Tried again this
morning and after a power cycle (which they tell you not to do for
the first week or two while it's "optimising", but I had to try
something) it seemed to be fine... nice fast internet access (speed
check sites are giving 30/8 or better), and control panel accessible
on 192.168.1.1.
I discovered that the router supplied comes with some energy saving
mode configured which disables the LED status lights (for internet
and wifi) on top of the box.  Easily rectified in control panel, but
not very helpful when you're setting up and want all the diagnostics
you can get!  (The LEDs might have indicated if/when there was any
action on the switchover day, but being disabled they're telling you
nothing).
Seems a reasonably competent but basic router.  I had no problems
updating the subnet to my LAN's 192.168.7.X range (like the old
Demon-supplied Thompson ADSL router I used to use).  Disabled its
DHCP and DNS for the LAN and main wifi as I have my own machine
serving that.  Supports port-forwarding but I have yet to enter the
only one I care about (ssh).  Occurs to me I should expunge any
mention of the 158.152.1.58 and 158.152.1.43 Demon DNS servers (i.e
from my own DHCP server and static-IP configured machines) as those
will presumably die at some point.  Vodafone's router seems to know
about a couple of Vodafone ones but it's unclear how stable the IPs
are and googling finds people saying they're rubbish and to use
OpenDNS or Google's DNS instead.
There's a nice feature that the router provides 2 wifi interfaces...
"wifi 2" (if enabled) seems to be a guest one (on 192.168.5.X) which
just routes to the WAN side and doesn't give LAN (or router control
panel) access.  You can enable the router's DHCP and DNS just for the
guest wifi (just as well as it can't access those services on the LAN).
Only minor issue I have is that on the old Thomson router I could
telnet into it and set some local routing for a 192.168.0.X subnet I
have here with a commandline
   ip rtadd dst=192.168.0.0 dstmsk=255.255.255.0 gateway=192.168.7.2
but there seems to be no way to do anything equivalent on the
Vodafone router (and so far as I can determine there's no commandline
access). This isn't actually a big deal as the only thing on that
network was a wifi access point for guests and they can use the guest
wifi on the Vodafone router now.

Ummm, since we know Vodafone don't aksherly make routers all you need
to do is work out the bit inside.
I'm still waiting, some time later, for the death of demon offer.
I say vodafone are liars.

I think the fiber offer is only made to people that are in locations
that have a LLU.

They made me an offer and then decided they weren't.

I have actually phoned them more than once, got a promise of an offer
more than once.

It doesn't happen.

Maybe vodafone are telling truth to you, but they are fibbing to me and
many other people when you try to take them up on an offer.

[t***@gmail.com]

To answer a few of the previous/add some more info:

If enabled, the "wifi2" guest network is password protected with its own password. I don't think you can configure either wifi without one, and in fact most of the boxes for entering passwords seem to insist on an 8 character minimum mixed case including a digit and a symbol password (at least that's what the accompanying text on the web-pages claims... in practice the restriction seems to be slightly more relaxed).

Apparently it's a Huawei modem. A 963168_HUAWEIVOX25 according to the router's system info page. Googling leads to quite a bit of discussion of it (mostly by underwhelmed power-users) on the kitz.co.uk forums.

I was hoping the web interface might have some switch for "enable command line access" or something like that, but I can't see anything. Attempting to telnet or ssh into it just gets a "connection refused" (not a login prompt). Understandable Vodafone want to limit the potential for users to stuff things up and need support though. However I'm not too bothered as I've decided it makes more sense to have my old 192.168.0.X "guest" network NAT-ed onto the 192.168.1.X LAN, so the router will never need to route 192.168.0.X packets.

I should mention that Vodafone do - and proactively! - communicate the information (broadband ID and password; maybe there was some "settings" information too) that you'd need to use your own VDSL modem (seems to be a change of policy ~2016-2017 according to history as recorded in the kitz.co.uk forums... previously they wouldn't give this info out). I also note that the supplied router doesn't make this info visible, and presumably has it immutably hardwired in. (Not really surprising if the HW is subsidised).

After a few days use now, speed tests are giving numbers like 38 down and 8.9 up.

Mention of Samba reminds me that there were some controls to enable/disable SMB, printer sharing and "Twonky". I simply disabled them all but presumably they were something to do with a USB port on the side of the router... guessing you can plug in drives and/or a printer and have the router act as a bit of a server (no interest myself, I have "proper HW" for that sort of thing).

I've not done any nmap scans of either internal network on the WAN side yet but will at some point.

No idea what Vodafone have or plan to offer for Demon people with no "superfast" infrastructure in the area. Vodafone do have their own "Standard broadband" for their ADSL2+ service... I'd assume it'd be pretty seamless to move people on to that. Not sure I undersand the point about LLU though... if you're on Demon already, doesn't that imply you must already be in scope of some LLU agreement? Or are there areas where whatever infrastructure supports ADSL2+ is subject to unbundling, but any new superfast fibre infrastructure isn't?

Tim

[Chris S]

No idea what Vodafone have or plan to offer for Demon people with no "superfast" infrastructure in the area. Vodafone do have their own "Standard broadband" for their ADSL2+ service... I'd assume it'd be pretty seamless to move people on to that. Not sure I undersand the point about LLU though... if you're on Demon already, doesn't that imply you must already be in scope of some LLU agreement? Or are there areas where whatever infrastructure supports ADSL2+ is subject to unbundling, but any new superfast fibre infrastructure isn't?

As can be seen from my signature I am no longer using a Demon BB
product. When I was with Demon and migrated to their Business
Unlimited Service (BD i.e. Before Vodafone) I was offered a slightly
more expensive package because there wasn't a C&W LLU at my exchange.
Demon had to use BT Wholesale to provide the connection, hence the
increased price.

I assume that is still the state of play, i.e. for any 'legacy' Demon
customers who are still with Demon/Vodafone and whose exchange had no
C&W presence, Demon/Vodafone are still subcontracting part of the
service to BT. I am being purposely vague as I have no idea how it
works in practice.

Chris S

[Martin Brown]

Post by Chris S

No idea what Vodafone have or plan to offer for Demon people with no "superfast" infrastructure in the area. Vodafone do have their own "Standard broadband" for their ADSL2+ service... I'd assume it'd be pretty seamless to move people on to that. Not sure I undersand the point about LLU though... if you're on Demon already, doesn't that imply you must already be in scope of some LLU agreement? Or are there areas where whatever infrastructure supports ADSL2+ is subject to unbundling, but any new superfast fibre infrastructure isn't?

As can be seen from my signature I am no longer using a Demon BB
product. When I was with Demon and migrated to their Business
Unlimited Service (BD i.e. Before Vodafone) I was offered a slightly
more expensive package because there wasn't a C&W LLU at my exchange.
Demon had to use BT Wholesale to provide the connection, hence the
increased price.
I assume that is still the state of play, i.e. for any 'legacy' Demon
customers who are still with Demon/Vodafone and whose exchange had no
C&W presence, Demon/Vodafone are still subcontracting part of the
service to BT. I am being purposely vague as I have no idea how it
works in practice.

To be fair to VF that is how it works for any exchange where there is no
LLU belonging to a particular ISP. It is one of the things that makes
Plusnet attractive on pricing since they are BT just in a better skin.

Most rural exchanges have no LLU at all - not cost effective so you pay
extra to get a worse monopoly service.

[Wm]

Post by Martin Brown
To be fair to VF that is how it works for any exchange where there is no
LLU belonging to a particular ISP. It is one of the things that makes
Plusnet attractive on pricing since they are BT just in a better skin.

Anecdote: yesterday I decided to go for Plusnet, there was some problem
auto-magically transferring my phone line [2] which meant I had to call
BT. Upshot? BT gazumped Plusnet. They seemed genuinely concerned that
they were losing a customer that had been with them for over 25 years as
this was the one thing that permeated from one level to another as I got
escalated.

The relevance to Martin's comment is that it was clear (whatever the
truth) that BT definitely perceive themselves to be the premium service
and Plusnet the Everyday Value offering.

However frustrated I was at being taken through the phone game (you need
to call this number, I need to transfer you, please wait while I speak
to, etc) by BT, the person I got through to eventually was different, he
took some details, said he needed to check a few things and talk to
someone else and would I mind if he called me back instead of keeping me
on the line? One agreed deal later [1] we chatted generally for a few
minutes ("are you from ...", etc), as relaxed and friendly a
conversation as one might like.

[1] not going to say what I got until I've seen the small print

[2] I'm pretty sure I would not have got this deal if my xfer to Plusnet
had been seamless, there is a moral in there somewhere

motd: Customer Retention departments do sometimes work for the customer
and occasionally it is worthwhile playing pass the parcel on the ph

P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I wanted
and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

[Martin Brown]

Post by Wm

Post by Martin Brown
To be fair to VF that is how it works for any exchange where there is
no LLU belonging to a particular ISP. It is one of the things that
makes Plusnet attractive on pricing since they are BT just in a better
skin.

Anecdote: yesterday I decided to go for Plusnet, there was some problem
auto-magically transferring my phone line [2] which meant I had to call
BT.  Upshot?  BT gazumped Plusnet.  They seemed genuinely concerned that
they were losing a customer that had been with them for over 25 years as
this was the one thing that permeated from one level to another as I got
escalated.
The relevance to Martin's comment is that it was clear (whatever the
truth) that BT definitely perceive themselves to be the premium service
and Plusnet the Everyday Value offering.

It is odd really since at least until BT took over Plusnet the latter
were a lot more technically savvy and sold to the cognescenti on word of
mouth alone. Things are different now that they are advertising on TV.

Post by Wm
However frustrated I was at being taken through the phone game (you need
to call this number, I need to transfer you, please wait while I speak
to, etc) by BT, the person I got through to eventually was different, he
took some details, said he needed to check a few things and talk to
someone else and would I mind if he called me back instead of keeping me
on the line?  One agreed deal later [1] we chatted generally for a few
minutes ("are you from ...", etc), as relaxed and friendly a
conversation as one might like.
[1] not going to say what I got until I've seen the small print
[2] I'm pretty sure I would not have got this deal if my xfer to Plusnet
had been seamless, there is a moral in there somewhere
motd: Customer Retention departments do sometimes work for the customer
and occasionally it is worthwhile playing pass the parcel on the ph

It is always worth talking to the customer retention team before leaving
- they are the only ones with any leeway to make you an offer. Automatic
renewal is invariably a ripoff. Loyal customers invariably get exploited :(

Post by Wm
P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I wanted
and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

I expect you have. Well done! I still think Plusnet may have the better
customer service operation but I'm basing it on a very small sample.

[Wm]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm

Post by Martin Brown
To be fair to VF that is how it works for any exchange where there is
no LLU belonging to a particular ISP. It is one of the things that
makes Plusnet attractive on pricing since they are BT just in a
better skin.

Anecdote: yesterday I decided to go for Plusnet, there was some
problem auto-magically transferring my phone line [2] which meant I
had to call BT.  Upshot?  BT gazumped Plusnet.  They seemed genuinely
concerned that they were losing a customer that had been with them for
over 25 years as this was the one thing that permeated from one level
to another as I got escalated.
The relevance to Martin's comment is that it was clear (whatever the
truth) that BT definitely perceive themselves to be the premium
service and Plusnet the Everyday Value offering.

It is odd really since at least until BT took over Plusnet the latter
were a lot more technically savvy and sold to the cognescenti on word of
mouth alone. Things are different now that they are advertising on TV.

I had to go through "I do not have a TV, I do not want a Sports Package,
honest, I do not have a television set, promise, have you listened to
the BBC World Service recently? Isn't that enough news!" more than once.

I think this is part of why I got an offer.

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm
However frustrated I was at being taken through the phone game (you
need to call this number, I need to transfer you, please wait while I
speak to, etc) by BT, the person I got through to eventually was
different, he took some details, said he needed to check a few things
and talk to someone else and would I mind if he called me back instead
of keeping me on the line?  One agreed deal later [1] we chatted
generally for a few minutes ("are you from ...", etc), as relaxed and
friendly a conversation as one might like.
[1] not going to say what I got until I've seen the small print
[2] I'm pretty sure I would not have got this deal if my xfer to
Plusnet had been seamless, there is a moral in there somewhere
motd: Customer Retention departments do sometimes work for the
customer and occasionally it is worthwhile playing pass the parcel on
the ph

It is always worth talking to the customer retention team before leaving
- they are the only ones with any leeway to make you an offer. Automatic
renewal is invariably a ripoff. Loyal customers invariably get exploited :(

if you can get through to the right people I recommend it.

pity vf have fucked it so badly by making offers they can't maintain.

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm
P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I wanted
and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

I expect you have. Well done! I still think Plusnet may have the better
customer service operation but I'm basing it on a very small sample.

if anyone is interested I think the offer to me works like this:

do we need to charge an up front fee if we already have the cables: No,
the cabinet is visited often, just swap a pair for a cable when the
engineer is there

is this a heavy phone user? if not throw a low charge high call cost
package at him and see if he bites: Fine with me, haven't seen it but it
is a good way of clawing back

what's this guy's game / porn / heavy internet use like? Occasionally
high, mostly mid to low, offer him a good deal on that: Fine by me [1]

what's the support cost likely to be?: low, he seems to know what he is
doing

has he handled a modem before?: yes, low cost [2]

etc

keep going through that and I think I'm not only a retained customer but
a low cost retention.

[1] one's own perception of usage can be odd, I rely on actual numbers,
I am definitely low as I recall breaking 60Mb on Demon and didn't like
it, my usage hasn't generally changed, the crap being delivered along
with my ordinary usage has changed substantially. I accept I should pay
for a bit of that.

[2] not sure the modem even comes into the cost equation these days

My advice to exiting demonites is to see if you can talk to someone and
explain your particular profile (I think that is what a use combination
is called these days). If you can't you'll have to fit into one of the
existing ones.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

Post by Wm

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm
The relevance to Martin's comment is that it was clear (whatever the
truth) that BT definitely perceive themselves to be the premium
service and Plusnet the Everyday Value offering.

It is odd really since at least until BT took over Plusnet the
latter were a lot more technically savvy and sold to the cognescenti
on word of mouth alone. Things are different now that they are
advertising on TV.

Admittedly it's now rather a lot of years that I've been with PlusNet,
so things _may_ have changed at BT (I only had 'phone with them - PN
were my first broadband), but one of the reasons I was so delighted to
escape from BT was the total incompetence of their customer service,
bill clarity, etcetera. Judging from how they (BT) still lay out their
bills, I don't think they _will_ have improved. (Look at how they handle
a change of standing charge [line rental] part way through a billing
period - they go through a very complicated spiel about partial refunds
and partial charges.)

Post by Wm
I had to go through "I do not have a TV, I do not want a Sports
Package, honest, I do not have a television set, promise, have you
listened to the BBC World Service recently? Isn't that enough news!"
more than once.
I think this is part of why I got an offer.

So far, in my annual chat with PlusNet, I don't think they've tried to
sell me any TV services.
[]

Post by Wm

Post by Martin Brown
It is always worth talking to the customer retention team before
leaving - they are the only ones with any leeway to make you an
offer. Automatic renewal is invariably a ripoff. Loyal customers
invariably get exploited :(

I now sadly consider it an annual ritual that has to be gone through,
just the same as car insurance (and others, if I had any), haggling with
the supplier. I've haggled with PN at least twice before, and looks like
I'm going to have to again this year (their current best offer is an 18%
increase on last year).

Post by Wm
if you can get through to the right people I recommend it.

That is very true.

Post by Wm
pity vf have fucked it so badly by making offers they can't maintain.

I presume they only made those verbally, and you didn't have a recorder
running.

Post by Wm

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm
P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I
wanted and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

I expect you have. Well done! I still think Plusnet may have the
better customer service operation but I'm basing it on a very small
sample.

It's not bad, but it definitely has deteriorated over the last few
years. (To a first approximation, the only way you can "raise a ticket"
to ask a question or get something done now is to raise a complaint,
which used not to be the case. They're far from alone in that respect -
many organisations [the BBC in particular] now really only respond to
complaints, normal enquiries/observations/feedback are mostly ignored
[or - it often seems deliberately - misunderstood].)

Post by Wm
do we need to charge an up front fee if we already have the cables: No,
the cabinet is visited often, just swap a pair for a cable when the
engineer is there
is this a heavy phone user? if not throw a low charge high call cost
package at him and see if he bites: Fine with me, haven't seen it but
it is a good way of clawing back
what's this guy's game / porn / heavy internet use like? Occasionally
high, mostly mid to low, offer him a good deal on that: Fine by me [1]
what's the support cost likely to be?: low, he seems to know what he is
doing
has he handled a modem before?: yes, low cost [2]
etc
keep going through that and I think I'm not only a retained customer
but a low cost retention.
[1] one's own perception of usage can be odd, I rely on actual numbers,
I am definitely low as I recall breaking 60Mb on Demon and didn't like
it, my usage hasn't generally changed, the crap being delivered along
with my ordinary usage has changed substantially. I accept I should
pay for a bit of that.
[2] not sure the modem even comes into the cost equation these days
My advice to exiting demonites is to see if you can talk to someone and
explain your particular profile (I think that is what a use combination
is called these days). If you can't you'll have to fit into one of the
existing ones.

In my case, I don't want any _change_ - just repeat of what I had last
year.

(I repeat my warning - whoever you go with, make sure they don't put you
on non-coterminous contracts. They like to do that, as a _blatant_ way
of getting round OfCom's rules about not charging termination fees if
they raise rates mid-contract.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230003/sponsors/new?token=gHafDVBYobum
elL9J54c
(Petitions - at least e-petitions - should collect votes both for and
against, if they're going to be reported as indicative of public
opinion.)

By the very definition of "news," we hear very little about the dominant
threats to our lives, and the most about the rarest, including terror.
"LibertyMcG" alias Brian P. McGlinchey, 2013-7-23

[Wm]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Wm
pity vf have fucked it so badly by making offers they can't maintain.

I presume they only made those verbally, and you didn't have a recorder
running.

You haven't been paying attention, have you?

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Wm
No, the cabinet is visited often, just swap a pair for a cable when
the engineer is there
is this a heavy phone user? if not throw a low charge high call cost
package at him and see if he bites: Fine with me, haven't seen it but
it is a good way of clawing back
what's this guy's game / porn / heavy internet use like? Occasionally
high, mostly mid to low, offer him a good deal on that: Fine by me [1]
what's the support cost likely to be?: low, he seems to know what he
is doing
has he handled a modem before?: yes, low cost [2]
etc
keep going through that and I think I'm not only a retained customer
but a low cost retention.
[1] one's own perception of usage can be odd, I rely on actual
numbers, I am definitely low as I recall breaking 60Mb on Demon and
didn't like it, my usage hasn't generally changed, the crap being
delivered along with my ordinary usage has changed substantially.  I
accept I should pay for a bit of that.
[2] not sure the modem even comes into the cost equation these days
My advice to exiting demonites is to see if you can talk to someone
and explain your particular profile (I think that is what a use
combination is called these days).  If you can't you'll have to fit
into one of the existing ones.

In my case, I don't want any _change_ - just repeat of what I had last
year.

if you want more vf bb, change you must, dear, because I am fairly
certain it is going to end.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I repeat my warning - whoever you go with, make sure they don't put you
on non-coterminous contracts. They like to do that, as a _blatant_ way
of getting round OfCom's rules about not charging termination fees if
they raise rates mid-contract.)

I acknowledged you here for raising the point and checked at each stage.
Both plusnet and bt are offering me 18 month contracts for ph and bb,
no sign of 12 / 18 difference. Maybe that is a sign you should
negotiate again rather than other people?

I generally prefer a longer good deal rather than a shorter one, other
people may differ. I read most of (as in most of the words) the
contracts I agree to and don't seem to have been caught by the clause
you mention so frequently. Maybe you should go back to whoever it was
and say, "let's have another go, times have changed".

For what it is worth, my review says ph and bb contract terms are
normally the same length from main providers in early autumn 2018.
Obviously people should check details for themselves.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

Post by Wm

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In my case, I don't want any _change_ - just repeat of what I had
last year.

if you want more vf bb, change you must, dear, because I am fairly
certain it is going to end.

I'm a bit bemused how my "I don't want any change" morphed into "If you
want more ...".

Post by Wm

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I repeat my warning - whoever you go with, make sure they don't put
you on non-coterminous contracts. They like to do that, as a
_blatant_ way of getting round OfCom's rules about not charging
termination fees if they raise rates mid-contract.)

I acknowledged you here for raising the point and checked at each
stage. Both plusnet and bt are offering me 18 month contracts for ph
and bb, no sign of 12 / 18 difference. Maybe that is a sign you should
negotiate again rather than other people?

I intend to haggle again nearer the time. Last year the "line rental
saver" (save a bit by paying a year in advance) was indeed only
available with a year's duration, whereas the BB was 18 month. Hopefully
they have indeed brought them into line.

Post by Wm
I generally prefer a longer good deal rather than a shorter one, other

On the whole, so do I - like fixed price energy contracts, you're locked
into (usually) lower prices for longer. Though in the case of BB/phone,
rather than just gas or electricity, 18 months is a bit long to be
locked into if things really go wrong. I'd probably go for it, though,
if it's available.

Post by Wm
people may differ. I read most of (as in most of the words) the
contracts I agree to and don't seem to have been caught by the clause
you mention so frequently. Maybe you should go back to whoever it was
and say, "let's have another go, times have changed".

I will.

Post by Wm
For what it is worth, my review says ph and bb contract terms are
normally the same length from main providers in early autumn 2018.
Obviously people should check details for themselves.

Indeed.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230003/sponsors/new?token=gHafDVBYobum
elL9J54c
(Petitions - at least e-petitions - should collect votes both for and
against, if they're going to be reported as indicative of public
opinion.)

"He who will not reason is a bigot;
he who cannot is a fool;
he who dares not is a slave."
- Sir William Drummond

Above all things, use your mind.
Don't be that bigot, fool, or slave.

[Wm]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wm

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In my case, I don't want any _change_ - just repeat of what I had
last year.

if you want more vf bb, change you must, dear, because I am fairly
certain it is going to end.

I'm a bit bemused how my "I don't want any change" morphed into "If you
want more ...".

The Demon brand and associated packages is going to be gone, so change
is inevitable, therefore you can't have what you want.

Ergo, if you want more of what you have you will have to change
something at your end, otherwise it'll be changed for you, which could
go either way.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Wm

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

Post by Wm

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In my case, I don't want any _change_ - just repeat of what I had
last year.

if you want more vf bb, change you must, dear, because I am fairly
certain it is going to end.

I'm a bit bemused how my "I don't want any change" morphed into "If you
want more ...".

The Demon brand and associated packages is going to be gone, so change
is inevitable, therefore you can't have what you want.

Ah, now I see where the confusion has arisen. I don't now (AFAIK - I'm
certainly not paying!) have _any_ service from Demon (or its
successors); I was talking about ISP provision in general.

There may also have been confusion due to your use of the word "more": I
see now that you may have meant "continued", whereas I interpreted
(wrongly) you to mean "additional". ("If you want more ...")

Post by Wm
Ergo, if you want more of what you have you will have to change
something at your end, otherwise it'll be changed for you, which could
go either way.

I changed about a year after the nabisco fiasco (at the point where
namesco started playing silly buggers with the remaining d.c.u
customers).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

(Petitions - at least e-petitions - should collect votes both for and
against, if they're going to be reported as indicative of public
opinion. If you agree, please click below, unless you already have.)
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230003/sponsors/new?token=gHafDVBYobum
elL9J54c

Do ministers do more than lay people?

[Wm]

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm
motd: Customer Retention departments do sometimes work for the
customer and occasionally it is worthwhile playing pass the parcel on
the ph

It is always worth talking to the customer retention team before leaving
- they are the only ones with any leeway to make you an offer. Automatic
renewal is invariably a ripoff. Loyal customers invariably get exploited :(

vodafone (or some people within) have been sending misleading e-mails
for a while now

are they customer retention flox or not?

Post by Martin Brown

Post by Wm
P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I wanted
and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

I expect you have. Well done! I still think Plusnet may have the better
customer service operation but I'm basing it on a very small sample.

I'm not proud yet.

[Wm]

On 10/10/2018 14:35, Wm wrote:

[ff to self]

Post by Wm
P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I wanted
and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

stet a lot of the above, looks like it is Plusnet after all.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Wm
[ff to self]

Post by Wm
P.S. presuming this works out I'll have got the sort of deal I wanted
and have spoken about here except BT get my money not Vodafone.

stet a lot of the above, looks like it is Plusnet after all.

For interest: I've just done my annual haggle with PlusNet, and they're
now offering me fibre for less (though only by a small amount) than what
they'd charge me to continue what I have now. (OK, there's this peculiar
thing of a "free" router but 6.95 "P&P" - I can't imagine the P&P is
really that much, so I don't know why they do that.) It's FTTC not FTTP
(I asked "doesn't someone have to come to fit the fibre", and was told
no. You may all know this is the case, but I didn't).

[John Hall]

It's FTTC not FTTP (I asked "doesn't someone have to come to fit the
fibre", and was told no. You may all know this is the case, but I
didn't).

I think it's almost all FTTC, isn't it? I assume that FTTP wouldn't be
economically viable unless they charged a hell of a lot for it.

[John Hall]

Post by Chris S

Post by t***@gmail.com
No idea what Vodafone have or plan to offer for Demon people with no
"superfast" infrastructure in the area. Vodafone do have their own
"Standard broadband" for their ADSL2+ service... I'd assume it'd be
pretty seamless to move people on to that. Not sure I undersand the
point about LLU though... if you're on Demon already, doesn't that
imply you must already be in scope of some LLU agreement? Or are
there areas where whatever infrastructure supports ADSL2+ is subject
to unbundling, but any new superfast fibre infrastructure isn't?

As can be seen from my signature I am no longer using a Demon BB
product. When I was with Demon and migrated to their Business
Unlimited Service (BD i.e. Before Vodafone) I was offered a slightly
more expensive package because there wasn't a C&W LLU at my exchange.
Demon had to use BT Wholesale to provide the connection, hence the
increased price.
I assume that is still the state of play, i.e. for any 'legacy' Demon
customers who are still with Demon/Vodafone and whose exchange had no
C&W presence, Demon/Vodafone are still subcontracting part of the
service to BT. I am being purposely vague as I have no idea how it
works in practice.

That is the boat that I'm still afloat in.

(Just back from holiday - hence the late response.)

[t***@gmail.com]

LAN-side nmap scan lists these ports:

PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
80/tcp open tcpwrapped
443/tcp open ssl/tcpwrapped
2555/tcp open tcpwrapped
6698/tcp open unknown
6699/tcp open napster?
8080/tcp open tcpwrapped
8443/tcp open https-alt?

The 8080 just seems to serve the same as 80. 443 I assume is the same too over https but Firefox didn't like the cert so I didn't connect (however, on the Settings/Security page there is an option to switch to https only access and to download the router's certificate).

No idea what that 2555, 6698 & 6699 are. So far as I can tell, I have all the "Sharing" services disabled. The usual references do indeed list napster as a 6699 user. Only thing I can find on Google for these on Vodafone routers specifically is

https://forum.vodafone.de/t5/Archiv-Festnetz-und-LTE-Ger%C3%A4te/DSL-Easybox-804-Offene-Ports/td-p/1301802

(in German; run it through Google translate) and

https://www.networking-forums.com/security/vodafone-router-port-6699-open/

(those suggest I'll find some of those open on the WAN side too, which I do not like the idea of).

I then noticed that I hadn't disabled "UPnP" on the router (controlled from Settings/Configuration, not the Sharing page). Disabling that (I have no Windows machines on the premises) made no difference though.

The "guest" "wifi2" exposes the same, however there the web page just has an "Access denied: the selected page is not accessible from this WiFi connection" message. There's definitely no routing between the two subnets.

Restarting the router and checking for firmware updates (there wasn't one) made no difference to anything.

I've not done a WAN-side scan yet.

[t***@gmail.com]

One thing to add to the saga: despite giving you the impression that it's supposed to be a seamless upgrade, it seems Vodafone are setting you up a completely new account and billing. This led to me continuing to be billed for the discontinued Demon service (quickly fixed and refunded after a phone call to demon support - a refreshing change after a previous experience with a Vodafone mobile years ago) and briefly having the new Superfast service suspended due to not having a direct debit set up (restored within hours of paying the bill). To be fair, they did text me the day before I was disconnected, but it went to a text-to-voice service on the landline and sloppy clicking led to me deleting it before I'd heard it.

Apart from that so far so good.

Well there was one irritation: on Demon I would always use the online chat on the rare occasions support was needed. IMHO with less pressure to clear the call, whoever's on the other end can take the time do actually do whatever's necessary while handling multiple sessions and doesn't just try to fob you off with something as quickly as possible. So I tried Vodafone's chat support only to be told that, while the guy could see what was wrong, business customers had to phone in. So I did... and had to wait for 10-15 mins in a queue. And this we call "progress".

[Joe Wilson]

Really just to say I switched over finally last month . All went through and worked well from date of switchover . New router arrived with day to spare so quite tight on that . My Demon account had just about fallen over and was regularly having long outages so new service is just great . I live o about 2 miles from exchange and signal is all that was promised - and deal is actually cheaper than one I had with demon.

So all good and happy family and business.

I haven't started with adding wifi extenders in house yet - but new hub giving reasonable coverage through house.

So all good

Joe

[John Hall]

Post by Joe Wilson
Really just to say I switched over finally last month . All went
through and worked well from date of switchover . New router arrived
with day to spare so quite tight on that . My Demon account had just
about fallen over and was regularly having long outages so new service
is just great . I live o about 2 miles from exchange and signal is all
that was promised - and deal is actually cheaper than one I had with demon.

Good. But you don't actually say what you have switched over to. :)

[David Rance]

Post by John Hall

Post by Joe Wilson
Really just to say I switched over finally last month . All went
through and worked well from date of switchover . New router arrived
with day to spare so quite tight on that . My Demon account had just
about fallen over and was regularly having long outages so new service
is just great . I live o about 2 miles from exchange and signal is all
promised - and deal is actually cheaper than one I had with demon.

Good. But you don't actually say what you have switched over to. :)

Vodafone? (It's in the subject!)

David

[John Hall]

Post by David Rance

Post by John Hall

Post by Joe Wilson
Really just to say I switched over finally last month . All went
through and worked well from date of switchover . New router arrived
with day to spare so quite tight on that . My Demon account had just
about fallen over and was regularly having long outages so new
service is just great . I live o about 2 miles from exchange and
signal is all promised - and deal is actually cheaper than one I had with demon.

Good. But you don't actually say what you have switched over to. :)

Vodafone? (It's in the subject!)

Doh! I read the body but seemingly not the subject. Sorry!

[David Rance]

Post by John Hall

Post by David Rance

Post by John Hall

Post by Joe Wilson
Really just to say I switched over finally last month . All went
through and worked well from date of switchover . New router arrived
day to spare so quite tight on that . My Demon account had just
about fallen over and was regularly having long outages so new
service is just great . I live o about 2 miles from exchange and
signal is all promised - and deal is actually cheaper than one I had with demon.

Good. But you don't actually say what you have switched over to. :)

Vodafone? (It's in the subject!)

Doh! I read the body but seemingly not the subject. Sorry!

A justifiable mistake which I often make myself. And then I remember
what I was taught at school in grammar lessons, that is, never miss out
information in your text just because it happens to be in the heading!

David

[Wm]

Post by David Rance
A justifiable mistake which I often make myself. And then I remember
what I was taught at school in grammar lessons, that is, never miss out
information in your text just because it happens to be in the heading!

I was never told that, I guess comprehension tests are flexible.

[Martin Brown]

Post by Joe Wilson
Really just to say I switched over finally last month . All went
through and worked well from date of switchover . New router arrived
with day to spare so quite tight on that . My Demon account had just
about fallen over and was regularly having long outages so new
service is just great . I live o about 2 miles from exchange and
signal is all that was promised - and deal is actually cheaper than
one I had with demon.

What speed are you actually getting now with VDSL and what did you used
to get with ADSL+ when it was working? Do you know how far away your
nearest cabinet is? - that is what determines speed for FTTC.

Post by Joe Wilson
So all good and happy family and business.
I haven't started with adding wifi extenders in house yet - but new
hub giving reasonable coverage through house.
So all good

Presumed with non-Demon Voodofone VDSL deal?